Dse subframe and quadralink fine tuning 67 camaro

[icemanrd19]

67 camaro
Ls3/t56
Full interior with ac
Dse front subframe, non adjustable afco coilovers
Dse rear quadralink, single adjustable rear coilovers

Today while autocrossing I felt that the nose of the car didn't plant around the turns as good as other cars that were running. I know 95% of the issue is driver error and the other 5% is lack of balance setup. Ok ok maybe 99% driver error. When I switched to rear single adjustable my ride quality greatly increased. Where do you think I should start to get better autocross handling? Camber is 1.5 neg

Dse rear sway bar
Front single or double adjustables jri coilovers?
What front spring rate if I change the front coilovers?
If I replaced the fronts I would need to also go with a shorter stroke front coilovers since my car is pretty low.

[icemanrd19]

Also what sorta air pressure should you run?

275/35/18 and 315/30/18 Michelin ps2.

[dontlifttoshift]

I'm going to be amazingly blunt, it's not personal, it is just clearer this way. You have already pointed out driver error, you will find the most time fixing that.


didn't plant around the turns as good as other cars isn't a lot to go on.

Each corner has three sections, entry, exit, and the middle. In order to tune anything, you need to identify _where_ the problem is. Not where on the the car, where on the corner.

I am going to assume that by not planted you mean the car pushes. If it is pushing on entry through the middle, that is your fault. Back up your braking zone some and smooth out your wheel inputs. Brake, turn in, throttle out, concentrate and those three separate motions.....they will blend together eventually but try to make them three separate actions. That will force you back up the brake zone. Find Chris Jacobs if you go back tomorrow and get a ride, it will be worth it.

Spring rates are factory DSE 450f/250r ?

Camber is close enough at this point.....you could try a bit more and then you would get some toe out but it likely won't make much difference.

You're on the wrong tires......and quite honestly, they probably won't handle any more spring.

With no shock adjustment in the front, we can't try more rebound. With 275s on the front, you may want a rear bar to loosen the car up through the middle.

[icemanrd19]

Thanks for the feedback. Maybe I should retitle this as help me learn to drive. I'm being serious

Yes the car pushes 1/2 or 3/4 into the really sharp turns. When taking those turns it feels like my car is rolling instead of planting and staying firm. Best way to describe it is if I'm turning right the gap between the fender and the tire on the right side gets larger while the left side closes. I feel as if the side I'm turning too the gap between the fender and tire shouldn't expand that much. Other cars/ drivers had less of that roll

Yes those spring rates sound correct.

Tire wise I think you are right. Trying to get a good tire balance. Will most likely switch to a bfg.

If I upgrade the front coilovers what would you suggest switching to? What does adjusting the shock rebound feel like? Quicker to to rebound back to level or harder harder for the shock to compress?

Rookie here so thank you for the help

[dontlifttoshift]

Find an EVO school near you. Go to more autocross stuff. Get more seat time. Ride with people that are fast, get fast people to ride with you. A large portion of being fast is knowing where to be slow.

There is nothing wrong with body roll, don't get too hung up on that. The cars that are flat are very stiffly sprung and running truck loads of shock force and it can be fast but only if the driver can keep up. I strongly suggest reading Ron Suttons threads to get a better understanding of what is happening with car, he explains it better than I can.

You only have 4 contact patches on the ground, all the tuning, seat time, and awesome parts in the world will not mean much if those contact patches aren't the best they can possible be. Rival S is the answer for your tire sizes.

Two players here in this segment. RideTech and JRi. Everything else is noise. period. Since you're new, I would recommend RideTech single adjustable with Mr Sutton's valving. I don't see a need for triples in your application and it will just muddy the waters. The idea is to work on the shocks a little and work on the driver a lot. Too many knobs will give you too much to think about. Do all four corners.

Shocks control the speed at which the spring moves, consequently shocks control the speed at which weight transfers. In general, a car with higher rebound force will react quicker to driver inputs than a car with lower rebound force. The higher rebound transfers the weight quicker.

[Ryanater]

Can you tell what the car is doing mid-corner? I have found that shock adjustments can make a big difference on corner entry, but they are a band-aid if the car isn't balanced mid corner. If the car is pushing mid corner, a larger rear swaybar should help. (I also agree with the tire comment. New tires will make a world of difference)

I had the same problem when I started autocrossing, and I was told to make sure I am completely off of the brake before entering a corner to allow the tires to plant. Following that advice solved 75% of my problem since I was diving into corners too deep.

Keep in mind that I'm just throwing out a few general comments from my experience. What has worked for me in the past, might not work with your setup.

[icemanrd19]

Find an EVO school near you. Go to more autocross stuff. Get more seat time. Ride with people that are fast, get fast people to ride with you. A large portion of being fast is knowing where to be slow.

There is nothing wrong with body roll, don't get too hung up on that. The cars that are flat are very stiffly sprung and running truck loads of shock force and it can be fast but only if the driver can keep up. I strongly suggest reading Ron Suttons threads to get a better understanding of what is happening with car, he explains it better than I can.

You only have 4 contact patches on the ground, all the tuning, seat time, and awesome parts in the world will not mean much if those contact patches aren't the best they can possible be. Rival S is the answer for your tire sizes.

Two players here in this segment. RideTech and JRi. Everything else is noise. period. Since you're new, I would recommend RideTech single adjustable with Mr Sutton's valving. I don't see a need for triples in your application and it will just muddy the waters. The idea is to work on the shocks a little and work on the driver a lot. Too many knobs will give you too much to think about. Do all four corners.

Shocks control the speed at which the spring moves, consequently shocks control the speed at which weight transfers. In general, a car with higher rebound force will react quicker to driver inputs than a car with lower rebound force. The higher rebound transfers the weight quicker.

" A large portaion of being fast is knowing where to be slow" sitting here thinking about that line hits the spot. You are 100% right

Thank you i will check rons thread out. I thought i wanted more power and after driving yesterday i realized i need more skills and better understanding before i add anymore power

Ill wait till my work give me 50% off and ill slap some BFGS on there. I can still get some use out of these tires. By the time i learn how to properly drive then ill switch them out.

I really like my rear ridetech coilovers. The only thing i didnt like is cutting out the bracket alittle on the rear quadralink to make them work. I do not want to do that to my front subframe. Most likely i will end up going with some JRI coilovers. My buddy has the remote canister ones and man i love the way they feel. My coilovers are the older afco ones from 5 years ago.

Im wondering if what im feeling feels like the front corner lifting whenever its actually the rear of the car since im not running a rear sway bar. How big of a difference does a rear sway bar make on the quadralink?

[icemanrd19]

Can you tell what the car is doing mid-corner? I have found that shock adjustments can make a big difference on corner entry, but they are a band-aid if the car isn't balanced mid corner. If the car is pushing mid corner, a larger rear swaybar should help. (I also agree with the tire comment. New tires will make a world of difference)

I had the same problem when I started autocrossing, and I was told to make sure I am completely off of the brake before entering a corner to allow the tires to plant. Following that advice solved 75% of my problem since I was diving into corners too deep.

Keep in mind that I'm just throwing out a few general comments from my experience. What has worked for me in the past, might not work with your setup.

Yea i think im still braking as im turning into the corner atleast 25% of the corner.

[CSG]

I just skimmed the responses so some or all of this may have been said:
Slow in fast out until you learn to drive
Keep the less than great tires, this forces you to learn to drive
Car sounds unbalanced. Sounds like you need to stiffen the rear or possibly loosen the front.
Tire pressure is set by reading the tires. I typically end up around 40 on the front of my heavy car.

[CSG]

I am assuming that DSE recommends different spring rates depending on if you plan to run a rear bar or not. Is this correct? I would call them up with your spring rates & see if they designed that setup for a rear bar or not. I am sure that they have good balance worked out with their products.

[Ryanater]

I just skimmed the responses so some or all of this may have been said:
Slow in fast out until you learn to drive
Keep the less than great tires, this forces you to learn to drive
Car sounds unbalanced. Sounds like you need to stiffen the rear or possibly loosen the front.
Tire pressure is set by reading the tires. I typically end up around 40 on the front of my heavy car.

CSG, what tires are you running?

[dontlifttoshift]

....and on what?

[CSG]

On the last race car my favorite & final tire was NT01's on a 98 Mustang Cobra, I really liked those for grip, feel and durability. It was setup for wheel to wheel road racing but I played in some autox as well.
I have run quite a bit of cheaper street tires on mine & driving other's cars. Most of Nitto's offerings, some Falken's, BFG, and PS2's that I can think of off hand. A little shoe polish on the tire was placed (not all the time) and I would check to see at what pressure the tire started to roll over. Most cars I have driven have had less than ideal negative camber gain. On race cars I would run a lot of static negative camber but on the street cars I would stick with around .8 negative. Obviously all this will have an effect. Driving style will as well, I trail brake quite a bit so that will load up the outside front quite a bit. I would usually end up around 40 on the fronts, seems like I would start to roll most over around 35 or so. On the roadcourse I would start at low 20's and end up around 40 by the end of a race.

[CSG]

I will add that I always check tire temps (and pressure if on road course) as quickly as possible after stopping and always log it. This can tell you a lot about what your car is doing and what it needs. On road courses I would typically end up with different camber settings L/R.
I use rear tire pressure as a tuning aid kind of like a swaybar but obviously not as effective. I believe I would run around 32 in the rear IIRC. Never had any issues with rolling over a rear tire.

[Ryanater]

I will add that I always check tire temps (and pressure if on road course) as quickly as possible after stopping and always log it. This can tell you a lot about what your car is doing and what it needs. On road courses I would typically end up with different camber settings L/R.
I use rear tire pressure as a tuning aid kind of like a swaybar but obviously not as effective. I believe I would run around 32 in the rear IIRC. Never had any issues with rolling over a rear tire.

Good point. I ran out of adjustability on my rear swaybar and my car was still pushing. So I added a few PSI to the rear tires and it really seemed to help the car rotate. Obviously not ideal though because I'm just decreasing the grip in the rear instead of transferring grip to the front. Does DSE offer a larger sway bar? It also seems like your spring rates are pretty soft for autocross, but I'm not running a DSE subframe, so I can't really offer too much there.

On a side note, I'm surprised to hear you were running that much pressure up front. I usually run about 37lbs (hot) and still end up rolling the tire over. I stopped at 37lbs because it seemed like too much pressure already.

[icemanrd19]

So I just noticed something. I was talking to dse about switching to single adjustable shocks and asked them about the spring rate. They stated on their older subframe they were running 450lb springs and now they recommend 550lb springs with a ls3. Low and behold I have 450lb springs on my. How big of a difference will a 450lb vs a 550lb spring make on the front?

[Ryanater]

Generally a stiffer front spring rate will tighten the car up and make the front end push more.

[dontlifttoshift]

Guys, if you are using the rear bar to fix _anything other than a mid corner push_ you are doing it wrong. It is that simple. If you are airing up the rear tires to get the car to rotate and trading off the power down traction on exit you are doing it wrong.

If you just add the 550s on your current tire setup and don't change anything in the rear the car will be even tighter and you will hate it. Go to 550/300 and get the 3/4" bar to use as a tuning tool. and get some Rivals.....or buy a pair of 19s for the rear and run RE71s.

[icemanrd19]

I might not be describing pushing correctly. The car didn't slide forward like the front end was loading traction in gravel while turning. Sitting here thinking about it it felt like the rear end of the car was coming swinging around on me while entering a right hand turn. At one point doing a 180 turn I went more like a 250 degree turn.

What I really need to do is just autocross it more and get better terminology to describe what is really happening with the car as well as use my go pro

Here is a video of me doing this for the first time ever at a high school. Good guys was my second time. Maybe this can help

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10101168534310156&id=48502792

[dontlifttoshift]

This past weekend was your second autox?

Seat time. Don't spend any money on anything that doesn't involve you sitting in the seat and driving the car.

[CSG]

Donny, We will have to agree to disagree I believe on some of this.

As far as adjusting air pressure to turn the car, it is not the "right" way to do it. But, when you are at a race and that is all that is left that can be changed I will take corner speed over maximum acceleration every time.

On the sway bars. That one has been argued out plenty of times already, IE soft springs & heavy bars or heavy springs & soft bars. Pick your poison, lots of fast cars out there with each setup. For track cars I like heavy springs for street cars I typically use softer springs with heavier bars.

OP, I agree with Donny. You need to drive the car more and maybe have someone more experienced make a couple laps and give some insight.
There are lots of variables that can be manipulated to get a car to run fast. Most guys though are not going to go changing pick-up points, track widths or even get a square tire setup. This leaves us for the most part with tires, springs, bars, shock/springs & alignment. I have been fortunate enough to get to drive quite a few cars for different owners. I have driven cars that handle fantastic and then got into one that felt like it was just going to roll over. Lap times were barely different. If you can get the car balanced you can make it go fast with seat time.

[icemanrd19]

This past weekend was your second autox?

Seat time. Don't spend any money on anything that doesn't involve you sitting in the seat and driving the car.

Yes. Maybe my 6th or 7th lap

[icemanrd19]

Man I don't know if it was the coilovers going from a afco non adjustable to a jri single adjustable or going to a 550lb spring from a 450lb but man the car handles even better. It absolutely plants the wheels going around a sharp turn and grips like no other.

[71RS/SS396]

On my wife's 1st gen with DSE sub and q-link. JRI doubles, 650# front, 450#rear, 1.250 rear bar on the softest setting, 275/335 Rival S.
She can hang with some pretty fast drivers and cars if she keeps her head in it.
If your subframe is older, DSE has upgraded upper control arms that allow more caster and have slightly more camber built in.

[icemanrd19]

I have the front coilovers turn to full stiff and back 18 clicks. What would be a good driving setting? How do I know I need to add more front stiffness vs soften?

Seems the recommended DSE setting is 15 clicks according to my subframe instructions.

[CSG]

I usually tell people to set it all the way one way & drive it. Then set it all the way the other way & drive it. Then you get a feel for what the two extremes feel like and can better work your way in.

[icemanrd19]

Hopefully you can view it

Started around 32 psi in the tires and cruise shock settings. Then went to 2 more click on the front harder and cut some time down, after that 2 more clicks hard on the rear and cut the time down. Lowered to 28psi and cut the time down. Best time was a 48.2 and my last lap which I know was faster didn't record my time. Felt it was a solid high 47 run. Not bad for street tires and a car that can be daily driven if need be.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10101490869792266&id=48502792

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10101491106343216&id=48502792

[icemanrd19]

Going to be visiting this thread again this year.
New tsp cam and mods allow the car to make more power the entire curve and pull plenty strong up to 7k. I will be doing plenty of autocross runs before July since there will be a few of us driving up to pikes peak international to run at optima. Ordering gps unit and waiting for the new pro feature to be released on hontuners this month combined with track addict to record the progress. Now I just need to find more practice areas.

[Steve Chryssos]

Lookin' good in those videos... :cool:

[icemanrd19]

Quarts 818x, hp tuners mpvi2, added with my go pro this year should make some cool videos. This year I will be much more competitive since I have more seat time.