What suspension package would you choose for 1.gen.

[Bowtie racing]

Hi guys,

old story, but since there are many new packages on the market I would like to hear your opinion.

- car : 68 camaro
- powertrain "600hp" LSX / T-56
- use : everyday street / track weekends.
- minitubes / tigergage.
- backseat yes!
- front and rear suspension from same manufacturer.

Easy way would be ordering full dse catalog, but I would liked to get out of little bit less fabrication if possible and try something new.

[Build-It-Break-It]

What's your budget?

[Bowtie racing]

Well anything below full dse system.

[gator68428]

I have the TCI Engineering front IFS and rear torque arm. No welding required--bolts right in*. Great system. Affordable.

TCI didn't tell me this but the I was able to easily put 315/30-18 rivals up front with simple modification to the inside wheel well and rolling the lip of the painted fender. (frame rails are inset 2.5" or so...).

Chad Ryker has a similar setup and is getting pretty competitive at OPTIMA.

*If you purchase the prebuilt ford 9 inch rear-end. Otherwise welding the axle brackets on would be required. But no welding required on the car.

[Rod]

I used both a full Hotchkis TVS for 2 years and I used the full Ridetech stage 3 system for 2 years, and was successful with both, I have also used several brands in between over the last 16 years, I can help if you have any questions, both of those systems achieve the same result, they just get you there differently, I can give you and honest opinion on needed and or unnecessary parts, so you dont buy what you dont need ........

[BMR Sales]

Our Torque Arm kit is full Bolt-In

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://s24.photobucket.com/user/TractionControl/media/posted/73Camaro/_MG_2959_zps6qm10j8c.jpg.html)

[AU Doc]

Give Mark a call at Savitske Classic & Custom (http://scandc.com/new/node/9). He'll spend as long talking to you as it takes to find out what would work best for your particular set of concerns.

[Bowtie racing]

Thanks guys! Alot of new stuff for me.

[TheJDMan]

If I were in your shoes, I would consult with Rod Prouty and Ron Sutton and go with their recommendation. Rod has built a pro class track/autoX car using a stock subframe. That is some impressive stuff if you ask me. Between Rod and Ron you have access to some of the best pro-touring suspension knowledge going!

[Rod]

If I were in your shoes, I would consult with Rod Prouty and Ron Sutton and go with their recommendation. Rod has built a pro class track/autoX car using a stock subframe. That is some impressive stuff if you ask me. Between Rod and Ron you have access to some of the best pro-touring suspension knowledge going!

Thanks for the kind words Steve...Ron and I have been friends for a few years, I have been lucky to call some real smarty pants out there my friends

[Bowtie racing]

Thanks for the kind words Steve...Ron and I have been friends for a few years, I have been lucky to call some real smarty pants out there my friends

Rod are you somehow involved with Ridetech? I am considering their level 3 complete kit. I really cant understand how they can fit 10" front wheel in it :)

[CSG]

Has anyone compiled a list of where the roll centers typically end up with the various parts out there? Like for me I am looking into a speedtech TA but with RideTech front parts but need to know what my roll axis inclination will be.

[Rod]

Rod are you somehow involved with Ridetech? I am considering their level 3 complete kit. I really cant understand how they can fit 10" front wheel in it :)

I was a sponsored driver for them and later went to work for RideTech about 3 years ago, December last year started my own company Suspension Geek (http://suspensiongeek.com/)and sell there product along with other brands I have used, I have a new website being made as we speak the one I have now is just temporary (not happy with GoDaddys interface)


what year is the car your working on?

[ccmc]

Rod,
How does the ridetech level 2 with true turn compare to the tvs? I'm running the tvs and its still a bit too harsh on California rough roads and the bump steer is pretty noticeable. I'm considering swapping to ridetech but I also like the idea of a torque arm rear.

Thoughts?

Thanks

Rick

[DippedInSauce]

It sounds like you have a vary nice build on tap! I can offer some information that falls under "If only I knew then what I know now". There are obviously quite a few venders offering great suspension systems for first gens these days. As a result of a time crunch, I made the mistake of not doing enough research when shopping for mine. I would wholeheartedly suggest not including the Chris Alston Chassisworks system for your project based on what I can only describe as deplorable customer service practices. Throughout my entire build they offered me the absolute worst experience. Amongst other issues, they are of the mindset that the ride height on their systems be set unrealistically high. All of the other systems on the market completely mythbust this view. Also, if you happen the experience a component failure, chassis works aftersales support is terrible. You can reference "My Chassisworks experience" under the "feedback" section.

All of the systems on the market offer awesome engineering and performance advantages. It really comes down to determining which one fits your individual needs while also falling within your budget. I completely agree with the suggestion of consulting with individuals such as Ron as you will receive both fist hand seasoned, professional knowledge of the different systems and also extensive track and auto cross perspective.

[Bowtie racing]

Good info again!! 68 camaro is under consideration for high performance street and track car.
Low stance, wide fronts and good ride quality are on the list. I hope new LT-4 and T56 too :)

[Rod]

Rod,
How does the ridetech level 2 with true turn compare to the tvs? I'm running the tvs and its still a bit too harsh on California rough roads and the bump steer is pretty noticeable. I'm considering swapping to ridetech but I also like the idea of a torque arm rear.

Thoughts?

Thanks

Rick

the TVS can be rough, its still a leafspring it has to do everything so it REALLY depends heavily on the shocks, a really good modern shock on the TVS helps, the damping curves on a newer performance shock, is the reverse of a old design made for stock suspension,this revolution has really come about in the last 10 years, soft stock suspension needs heavy compression, and stiffer modified suspension need less compression and more rebound, on the track the leaf is a great handler but a more violent ride.....the ridetech front kit is designed to get rid of bump steer and allow 9.5-10 inch rim up front, and the 4 link in the back is a great compact lighter weight design (compared to leafs and torque arm) that works great on the street and track and has a smooth ride ......

[ra11ysport]

The limiting factor is how wide of a front tire do you want to run.
I made the mistake in trying to make a stock subframe work with a even 275 tire.
265 or under stick with stock subframe and give it the Ridetech treatment. 275-315 i would go with a Speedtech Extreme that will allow a 8in BS rim and thats keeping it in the fender.
The rear i think is more important and also alot more involved than the front. Id go with a Speedtech torque arm.
Im a huge Speedtech fan so im biased. Goodluck

[ccmc]

Thank you. I've had my car up for sale while dealing with chemo but now that we are moving I'm really tempted to keep it and go with the ridetech and true turn.

Rick

[Decline]

There's a guy mike or mark in a blue Camaro running the new speed tech setup at the autoXs in SoCal. He's got 335 rivals all the way around. It's nuts. The front tire appears "normal" in the fender. You can't tell until you see it from front/back. He was first in cam-t scca at el toro.
Side note tho chad Ryker was not there that day..lol

[Bowtie racing]

The limiting factor is how wide of a front tire do you want to run.
I made the mistake in trying to make a stock subframe work with a even 275 tire.
265 or under stick with stock subframe and give it the Ridetech treatment. 275-315 i would go with a Speedtech Extreme that will allow a 8in BS rim and thats keeping it in the fender.
The rear i think is more important and also alot more involved than the front. Id go with a Speedtech torque arm.
Im a huge Speedtech fan so im biased. Goodluck

If have understood correct ridetech would allow 10" front wheels with inner fender modification and some fender lip massage.

DSE front frame will allso give 10" clearance. I was a bit suprised to see at roadstershop front sub would only allow 8-9" wide front wheels.

[Cdog]

Art Morrison C-6 G frame and Tri -4 bar in the rear. The fit and over all construction of the frames are the best in the business. Later should you find it in your budget you can upgrade the rear to IRS using the Tri-4 bar frame already in place.

Looking at the AM suspension the Pozzi’s and James with the OLC chose I think speaks volumes about the performance of the package.

[CSG]

This is NOT directed at any particular person.

One of the issues with comparing the different suspensions out there is that most of the guys with actual knowledge have relationships with the various companies and as such they are not coming on a forum and talking down about anyone's product. Even us normal guys are reluctant because these vendors or on this site and you end up "starting something". I have no dog in the fight and not many friends anyway so I will attempt to start a discussion. I hope OP is Ok with me doing it here as I believe it fits. I am new to these classic cars so may have some info off but we have to start somewhere. The items below are one's that I have looked into or have experience with. I know there are many more out there but have done little to no research on them.

Rear Suspension: This is just a general assessment vs actual manufacturers parts.
Other than saving money I see no reason anyone would run a leaf spring rear.
Converging 4-links: Easy packaging, ride pretty well, hook very good, bind during articulation if you have much wheel travel. Nicknamed "quadrabind" for a reason. The bars try to set one roll center and the panhard typically tries to set a different one. These systems can work quite well for most of us though.
3 links: Great design if you can do the right packaging to get anti-squat where it needs to be and live with it.
Torque Arms: Best compromise. As long as you don't brake hop it they work great. Then you have to locate the axle laterally. So Watts link or panhard bar? Watts is better but I have won plenty of races with both and honestly in the car I have never felt the difference.

Front suspension:
Tru-Turn: Seems to be a pretty nice system if you are keeping the stock sub. Published numbers seem to be quite good for what it is. Guys do report issues with fitting 275's. I have also read that it moves the wheel back in the wheel well. Anyone know about that?
DSE sub: I like it. I like that they publish the numbers on it too.
Speedtech Touring sub: I have seen no numbers on it. I can't understand why someone would design a new sub & keep rear steer.
SpeedTech Extreme: I have seen no numbers on it. Looks nice but I don't care for the advertising. Please quantify "optimum" for me. Also "100% correct ackerman"? Let's see numbers!

[marolf101x]

TruTurn does not move the wheel back in the wheel well.
Wheel position is determined by upper and lower ball joint locations, then how much caster you adjust in.

I don't remember when/where/who had issues with the wheel moved back too far, but my guess is it would be caused by one of the following:
1-a ton of caster (by moving the upper ball joint back, as the lower ball joint is fixed. Unusual as you can only get about 6 degrees max anyway)
2-old version control arms (we moved the ball joints on both the upper and lower a long while back. If someone where to have old lowers, and new uppers, I could see the wheel being in the wrong location.)

Just some inside info for anyone reading this.

[ra11ysport]

If have understood correct ridetech would allow 10" front wheels with inner fender modification and some fender lip massage.

When i had my Ridetech setup i had rubbing issues with a 9.5 with 5.75BS and the 275 tire was darn near flush with the fender. If i was to stick with stock sub frame(which isnt a bad thing)I would run a 8.5 with a BFG255 tire.


DSE front frame will allso give 10" clearance. I was a bit suprised to see at roadstershop front sub would only allow 8-9" wide front wheels.

Ill be upfront im not a fan of DSE so someone else could answer better than me. I think the largest tire you can get inside the fender is a 305 with the DSE subframe. Like i said i could be wrong! One thing i dont like about the DSE subframe is the stock style tranny crossmember. Most all aftermarket subframes have nice adjustable crossmember.
Speedtech really took into account the big tire when they designed the extreme subframe. If i had an extra 7500$ laying around i would buy one!

[ra11ysport]

Speedtech Touring sub: I have seen no numbers on it. I can't understand why someone would design a new sub & keep rear steer.

Why not?
Also this one of the older subframes that is built like a tank and has the reputation as such. I have never heard one complaint about someone who owns and drives one say "If it was only rear steer" when your driving the you can tell what steer it is.

[ra11ysport]

There's a guy mike or mark in a blue Camaro running the new speed tech setup at the autoXs in SoCal. He's got 335 rivals all the way around. It's nuts. The front tire appears "normal" in the fender. You can't tell until you see it from front/back. He was first in cam-t scca at el toro.
Side note tho chad Ryker was not there that day..lol

Can you imagine the grip with 335's on all four corners.

[CSG]

Why not?
Also this one of the older subframes that is built like a tank and has the reputation as such. I have never heard one complaint about someone who owns and drives one say "If it was only rear steer" when your driving the you can tell what steer it is.

Again as I said I have not seen numbers so I am having to go off my experience here with rear steer. I have never been able to get acceptable bumpsteer out of a rear steer setup. Sure it may be fine with the wheels straight but when they turn the curve gets bad.

Edit: This is when taking ackerman into account as well. You can usually get OK bump but then you lose ackerman. Just my experience. I'm open to be proven wrong by some actual data.

[Rod]

ok original poster....



- car : 68 camaro
- powertrain "600hp" LSX / T-56
- use : everyday street / track weekends.
- minitubes / tigergage.
- backseat yes!
- front and rear suspension from same manufacturer.


I see what you wrote, so your building this! my 68 camaro, LS powered, Tigercage, Ridetech Full suspension with triple shocks 275 all four corners, Hotchkis subframe connectors, DSE front sway bar, Helwig rear sway bar.....I can help with real world answers.....for most who are entering the sport, if your planing on using the Ridetech kits I recommend the single adjust shocks instead of the triples, and ALWAYS order the four link with the hiem joint option...my company is Suspension Geek (http://suspensiongeek.com/) PM me I can help, I can tell you why i use what i used

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2016/12/051optimaultimatestreetcar1968camaro_zps-1.jpg (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/RodneyProuty/media/plain%20jane/051-optima-ultimate-street-car-1968-camaro_zpsxic1dsqf.jpg.html)

[killer69]

Don't take my word for it but if you want DSE level or better handling at a lower cost with more adjustability you really should be looking at the Speedtech Extreme front sub ant torque arm. all the Geometry was fine tuned by Ron Sutton as well as custom shock valving and a VERY reasonable custom set up package as well that matches the shocks springs sway bars and set up to your application. you can buy direct from Ron Sutton Race Technologies or Speedtech or any other dealer.
Rons Number is 844-722-3832

link to our page with the info http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=443/category_id=23/mode=prod/prd443.htm

[CSG]

Blake,

Do you guys have the geometry specs published somewhere for the extreme front end?

[killer69]

Blake,

Do you guys have the geometry specs published somewhere for the extreme front end?

there are alot, what do you think you want to see. most of the features are listed on the link page i posted up.

[Bowtie racing]

Guys, good and valuable info and opinions. Thank you!

- - - Updated - - -


ok original poster....



I see what you wrote, so your building this! my 68 camaro, LS powered, Tigercage, Ridetech Full suspension with triple shocks 275 all four corners, Hotchkis subframe connectors, DSE front sway bar, Helwig rear sway bar.....I can help with real world answers.....for most who are entering the sport, if your planing on using the Ridetech kits I recommend the single adjust shocks instead of the triples, and ALWAYS order the four link with the hiem joint option...my company is Suspension Geek (http://suspensiongeek.com/) PM me I can help, I can tell you why i use what i used

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2016/12/051optimaultimatestreetcar1968camaro_zps-1.jpg (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/RodneyProuty/media/plain%20jane/051-optima-ultimate-street-car-1968-camaro_zpsxic1dsqf.jpg.html)


Yes!!!

[DJW32]

ok original poster....



I see what you wrote, so your building this! my 68 camaro, LS powered, Tigercage, Ridetech Full suspension with triple shocks 275 all four corners, Hotchkis subframe connectors, DSE front sway bar, Helwig rear sway bar.....I can help with real world answers.....for most who are entering the sport, if your planing on using the Ridetech kits I recommend the single adjust shocks instead of the triples, and ALWAYS order the four link with the hiem joint option...my company is Suspension Geek (http://suspensiongeek.com/) PM me I can help, I can tell you why i use what i used

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2016/12/051optimaultimatestreetcar1968camaro_zps-1.jpg (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/RodneyProuty/media/plain%20jane/051-optima-ultimate-street-car-1968-camaro_zpsxic1dsqf.jpg.html)

Rod,

Why do you recommend single adjustable shocks?

[DJW32]

To the op,
Which ever suspension you end buying, make sure the company has POSITIVE customer support/feedback . I had a hell of a time trying to get misc bolts that my suspension provider forgot, and their directions to setup the front rack were wrong(the measurements/calculations in the directions are incorrect).

[Rod]

Rod,

Why do you recommend single adjustable shocks?

if a guys is going to autocross/ race two times a season yes a single maybe a double adjust shock, for ease of use for some one just learning, there is a ton to do already when driving, car placement, sight lines, hand an body placement, gauge evaluation (RPM on straight, speed in a corner) looking for brake markers and apexs and remembering them for the course.....and then turning off any emotion during the run also so you can analyze the cars attitude (pitch, roll, jounce) traction and turn in ......having a single adjust shock is easier then now having to learn high and low speed compression along with rebound and how they interact with the car, plus learning to drive.......if your going to spend 1 day a month or more racing (12 to 20) times a year then I would recommend a higher adjustment shock such as the triple, you will still have that learning curve but you have more events and closer together events to learn and remember and experiment

[killer69]

This is NOT directed at any particular person.

One of the issues with comparing the different suspensions out there is that most of the guys with actual knowledge have relationships with the various companies and as such they are not coming on a forum and talking down about anyone's product. Even us normal guys are reluctant because these vendors or on this site and you end up "starting something". I have no dog in the fight and not many friends anyway so I will attempt to start a discussion. I hope OP is Ok with me doing it here as I believe it fits. I am new to these classic cars so may have some info off but we have to start somewhere. The items below are one's that I have looked into or have experience with. I know there are many more out there but have done little to no research on them.

Rear Suspension: This is just a general assessment vs actual manufacturers parts.
Other than saving money I see no reason anyone would run a leaf spring rear.
Converging 4-links: Easy packaging, ride pretty well, hook very good, bind during articulation if you have much wheel travel. Nicknamed "quadrabind" for a reason. The bars try to set one roll center and the panhard typically tries to set a different one. These systems can work quite well for most of us though.
3 links: Great design if you can do the right packaging to get anti-squat where it needs to be and live with it.
Torque Arms: Best compromise. As long as you don't brake hop it they work great. Then you have to locate the axle laterally. So Watts link or panhard bar? Watts is better but I have won plenty of races with both and honestly in the car I have never felt the difference.

Front suspension:
Tru-Turn: Seems to be a pretty nice system if you are keeping the stock sub. Published numbers seem to be quite good for what it is. Guys do report issues with fitting 275's. I have also read that it moves the wheel back in the wheel well. Anyone know about that?
DSE sub: I like it. I like that they publish the numbers on it too.
Speedtech Touring sub: I have seen no numbers on it. I can't understand why someone would design a new sub & keep rear steer.
SpeedTech Extreme: I have seen no numbers on it. Looks nice but I don't care for the advertising. Please quantify "optimum" for me. Also "100% correct ackerman"? Let's see numbers!

on the Protouring sub. The idea originally 10 years ago was a sub that could be updated with existing parts ie if a guy had tubular control arms.and brakes. because it uses a stock spindle OR ATS spindle it is compatible as an upgrade for bent rusted factory sub frames there are some slight improvememts in the control arm mounting, the upper has the gulstrand mounting location as an option. The rack was a better option than reusing the steering box. although there are not crazy geometry mods the sub works well, My old Nova has actually beat both DSE cars on occasion.
the Extreme subframe
So what numbers would you like to see? would you like to see graphs? with what parameters?
you mention Ackerman we designed it so the ackerman "deg of Error" is 0 essentially at 2" of steering travel on a 108" wheel base there is 29.11 deg on the inside and 23.69 on the outside.
static roll center is +2.91" at 2" of dive it moves to +.82" and the toe is -.01 (this is with a static setting of 0.00") keep in mind that both the inner and outer tie rod ends are shimable to arrive at what ever toe setting and action you want to dial in set it to toe out and shim for bump out or vise versa. caster is set between 7-9 deg. the camber curve from a static setting of 0 goe to -1.63 at 2.5" of dive. less than most on the market as it does not need as dramatic camber change.
the dual power Sweet Rack is fully customizable as well. The body mounts are slotted so you can move the sub slightly to position the wheel where you want it the spindle has 8 Deg KPI for a better scrub radius. the sway bar is a splined 1.25" with rates from 550 to 3500 if you want the sway bar arms also have 2 positions that are calculated 1 auto X 1 road race settings.
anything else??

[Smittys]

Some of you may want to check this out. If performance is what your after look here http://www.ridetech.com/info/track1/. I have been working on the Ridetech race program for several years and have helped create track versions of several kits and there are more to come. If any has noticed the 48hr Camaro has found some series speed in the last year it comes from the New Track 1 suspension with all new geometry front and rear. The 275 front and 315 rear tire car has been running right up front with the Vette and chassis cars.

One other huge improvement to Team Ridetech has been the new Instinct shock program. We have brought fully active dampers to the Pro-Touring world http://www.ridetech.com/info/instinct/

[CSG]

Blake,

Thank you, that's a lot of good solid information. At first glance the only other thing I am curious about is anti-dive. Did you experiment with canting the arms any? I have no idea what these cars have factory for anti-dive or what they may need but just curious about it.

[Ron Sutton]

Blake,

Thank you, that's a lot of good solid information. At first glance the only other thing I am curious about is anti-dive. Did you experiment with canting the arms any? I have no idea what these cars have factory for anti-dive or what they may need but just curious about it.

Howdy,

Since I designed the geometry for the Extreme Chassis & Front Frame/Suspension packages, Blake suggested I chime in.

I have experimented with Anti-dive for decades & found some key advantages. Keeping it simple ... the first advantage is by running a significant amount of Anti-dive ... we can run softer front springs & still achieve the target front end travel under dive. For example ONLY ... let's say we have 3 identical setups except spring rate, anti-dive & sway bar. The sway bar rates differ only to make the combined spring rate & sway bar rate add up to equal chassis roll resistance.
* We set up #1 with 900# front springs & 0 anti-dive.
* We set up #2 with 750# front springs & 20% anti-dive.
* We set up #3 with 600# front springs & 40% anti-dive.
* And under hard braking into the turn 6 at Areunuts Raceway, they all compress 2".

So what's the difference?

Now, with each of these setups having the sway bar rate maximized for the spring rate, the key difference is the 600# sprung front end will follow the undulations in the track surface better everywhere we are NOT on the brakes, providing more grip. There is another benefit in caster gain. If our target caster is 8° in tight corners ... when the front end is fully compressed from braking force ... we run less static caster. For example, we could have 7° static caster & 1° of caster gain from the anti-dive to give us our target 8° in dive. Then everywhere else, we have 7°, which is better for high speed corners where we're not braking.

Anti-dive is not magic by itself. It is just one of many suspension geometry items that matter & affect the overall car grip & handling.

:cheers: