Ridetech strong arms with Viking coil overs

[Bwheeler287]

I'm ordering up a suspension package for my 69 Camaro that is mid restoration. Going with a full ridetech setup front and rear (arms, spindles, tru turn, musclebar, rear 4 link)

My question is in regards to the coil overs. I would like double adjustable but ridetech only offers single or triple, triples of which are over budget.

viking offers double adjustable at a reasonable cost so I would like to try them. They can match the rear shocks, but ridetech doesn't offer up any measurements on the fronts for them to match. I contacted them via email with no response. Viking reccomends assembling the suspension less the coiliver, mount the wheel at ride height and take measurements. Well....I'm not far enough along yet to have the car assembled with the wheels.

has anyone done this already? Or if not does anyone have the dimensions of the ridetech front coil over for use with their strong arms? If I can provide Viking with those numbers they can match a coilover to work for my application.

[Josh@Ridetech]

Hey,

First off, thanks for the interest in our setup!

I would definitely recommend looking more into the single adjustable coilovers that we offer. They're a monotube shock that offers a wide range of adjustments for you to fine tune the ride quality/handling. I'm going to quote one of our engineers (Britt) on this as he has helped describe the differences in monotube vs twin-tube several times (and does a good job doing it!).

"As I've lived and breathed shocks for years now (I grew up in dirt cars running mainly Ohlins shocks) I feel it's my duty to educate everyone as much as I can about the differences in shock design.
A shock absorber is pretty simple. . .it converts kinetic energy into another form of energy (typically thermal energy, or heat).
Inside the shock a piston with shims of various sizes and thicknesses is forced through oil. The oil pushes on the shims and creates resistance (force). When the force is greater than the shims can handle the shims bend and allows the oil to push past them. Given the same piston design, varying the number of shims, shim diameter, and shim thickness changes how much force it takes to "open" the shim stack. This is how a shock is "tuned".

When the shock is compressed the shock shaft goes into the shock. As there is oil in the shock, and oil cannot be compressed, you need to displace the volume of the shock shaft. If you didn't the shock would literally explode as the oil has to go somewhere. This can be accomplished a few ways. . .details below.

When talking about a performance application a shock absorber is simply a timing device. . .it's main purpose is to slow down the movement of the suspension.
I always tell people to think of it this way. . .think of a long sweeping turn. You have a turn in point, an apex, and an exit point.
Before the turn you step hard on the brake pedal and the nose dives. You let up on the brakes (or hold slightly if trail braking) and turn the steering wheel to start the turn. At this point the front tires are doing most of the work. Tires with more weight on them will do more "work" than those with less weight on them and hold the car on it's intended path. As you get through the corner and approach the apex the car needs to be back to "neutral" as you will begin to apply throttle in anticipation of exiting the corner. When you start to pick up the gas you want the weight to transfer to the rear tires as you need "forward bite". As you exit the corner you are full on the gas, the steering wheel is straight, and the rear tires are doing most of the work.
It is the job of the shock absorber to get this "timing" correct. . .meaning the attitude of the vehicle.

If your shock is under-damped in rebound the front will raise too early mid corner, removing grip from the front tires and placing it on the rear tires, which results in a "push" or understeer condition.

If your shock is under-damped in compression the front could bottom out and upset the car before you even get to the turn (these are just very basic examples. . .a lot more is going on that needs to be assessed.)


Now on to shock design.
A twin tube has two tubes. . .an inside tube where the piston travels through the oil, and an outer tube, which is used as the oil reservoir.
As the shock is compressed the oil that is not forced through the shim stack at the piston is pushed down the inner tube, makes a 180-degree turn, and is forced into the outer tube. Typically a twin tube shock has a "base valve". A valve at the bottom of the shock through which the oil must pass before it goes into the outer reservoir tube. This is why you typically see the compression adjuster on a twin tube shock on the body near the lower mount.
When you twist the adjuster it's limiting the flow of oil from the inner tube to the outer tube, thereby creating more compression force in the shock.
The downside is that moving the oil in this manner creates a lot of heat, and the inner tube is pretty small, so the piston and shim stack have to be small as well.


A monotube shock has only one tube that contains both the oil and an inert gas. There is a dividing piston that separates the oil and gas (nitrogen) and moves up and down as the shaft moves in and out. (remember, you must displace the shaft volume. So as the shaft is pushed into the shock the dividing piston is pushed down).
As the monotube is only one tube, the piston and shim stack can be much larger. This allows the compression shim stack to handle the compression forces (opposed to the base valve of the twin tube).
In the same realm the rebound stack can be much more effective as it's simply larger than that of a twin tube.
The other main advantage of a monotube is that the oil does not "move". . .the piston and shims are pushed through the oil column. Since the oil does not have to make a 180-degree turn it does not get as hot.

Here's a good pic of the piston of a monotube and a twin tube. As you can see, the monotube piston is much larger than the twin tube:
138270

Compression:
In a primarily street driven vehicle you want relatively soft compression. . .you need adequate movement of the suspension to provide ride quality (so it absorbs the bumps as you go over them opposed to transferring that energy into your seat) so you basically want the spring to handle the suspension when it compresses. You can increase the compression damping of the shock, but the outcome will typically be a harsher ride as you are inducing more force into compressing the spring.
More compression force will help ride quality in an under-sprung car (maybe keeping the suspension from bottoming out), but will hurt ride quality in a properly (or over-sprung) vehicle.

In a more "race oriented" vehicle you are typically traversing a relatively smooth surface, so you don't see much compression due to "bumps"; only compression due to major brake pedal application or major steering wheel rotation.
So compression adjustment becomes a means of slowing down the compression of the suspension.

Rebound:
In a primarily street driven vehicle we've found that you need more rebound in the shock to slow everything down after the suspension has compressed.
If you optimize for ride quality the suspension has moved quite a bit. You now need to slow down the spring pushing the suspension back toward the ground. If you do not the suspension will travel past ride height, going into extension, then back to compression, starting the whole deal over again and giving that "bouncy" feeling.

In the previously mentioned "race" vehicle your rebound adjustment now becomes a means of slowing down the extension of the suspension. . .or as I like to think of it, keeping the weight on one end or the other (the longer you have more weight on the front tires, the more grip they have further into the turn).

Basically what I'm saying is if you have a car that is primarily street driven with the occasional "track day" you are best off having a monotube, rebound adjustable shock. You don't loose much not having compression adjustment (as you'll just make ride quality worse); you want a monotube as the piston is almost twice the size of a twin tube, so it has better "control" (more surface area makes it more effective); and you can still have great ride quality and a fast car on the weekends.
If your vehicle is primarily a race car. . .who the hell cares about ride quality. . .it's only about going fast (which is made possible by the increased ability to control when a car transfers weight.)"

It's a long quote but definitely worth a read. Also, our shock measurements on the kits are no secret, let me know if you have any questions and I'll be happy to get you fixed up!

Thanks,
Josh

[Bwheeler287]

Thanks Josh for this very informative post. Earlier today I actually contacted speed tech with the same basic questions as I saw they were a Viking dealer. I posed my initial question and they transferred me to Blake.

We had a great convo about what I was trying to do, going pretty in depth about the conecept and design between a single adjustable gas charged montube "strut" shock like ridetechs vs a double adjustable hydraulic twin tube type like the Viking. His statements reflect very closely to your quote on the design of the shimstacks/base valve controlling compression differently in each setup. His main point being that a properly designed single adjust mono tube should be performing as well as any double adjust twin tube ( keeping in mind he's referring to my intended application) if the shimstacks are setup correctly and the car is sprung properly, then rebound is what I would be tweaking for handling changes any how.

Again, all this referring to my intended purpose. There's always more complicated cases than mine that make this all more in depth.

I come from racing motocross where ultimate suspension tuning is key. I always had adjustability of rebound as well as high and low speed compression so a single adjustable shock didn't seem like enough to me. Well I think I was just looking at it incorrectly for my application.

After talking with Blake and further understanding with your post I think I will stick with an entire ridetech system and roll with the single adjustables.

I want to point out that Blake never once tried to sell me a speed tech kit. Never once trying to talk me out of the ridetech setup. His actual advice at the end of the phone call was "if your running the ridetech setup, go with their single adjustables" I think it's a pretty awesome group of vendors that when a customer calls them about someone else's product, they don't even try to talk them into buying their stuff instead. Great people all around, Ridetech and Speedtech

[Josh@Ridetech]

Anytime, I'm happy to help!

Blake and the rest of the guys at Speedtech are great people. One of the great things about this industry is that it's full of enthusiasts who do their best to inform people and help them achieve their goals. It's nice to be in a group of people that genuinely cares about the other people in it.

If you come up with any more questions, feel free to get with me!

[beater65]

I want to point out that Blake never once tried to sell me a speed tech kit. Never once trying to talk me out of the ridetech setup. His actual advice at the end of the phone call was "if your running the ridetech setup, go with their single adjustables" I think it's a pretty awesome group of vendors that when a customer calls them about someone else's product, they don't even try to talk them into buying their stuff instead. Great people all around, Ridetech and Speedtech

Im a newbie to pro-touring suspension and this website for most part.

I have found this to be true as well, I've talked with numerous vendors about different setups trying to wrap my head around what is correct and best for my application and all have been more about educating yourself on function etc. More than just selling parts. Phenomenal. I appreciate these guys like Josh and many others that take their time to type up such an informative reply. It helps a lot for rookies

[Rod]

mono tube vs twin, is an age old argument,
is one better than the other??? each has its application and use, that is why many companies that make shocks such as, Penske, Ohlins, Afco, Fox and so on, make both twin and mono tube designs

and i will tell you some things that i have come across....first this piston picture is really cool but doesn't show why there so different.....

first the piston
the mono tube piston is so big because it does everything it moves up and down it the oil it has the flow control orifices in it and the shim/tuning stack is contained here so size is needed to hold all that, you couldn't do that on a smaller piston effectively

the twin tube piston does 1 thing compress the oil..thats it.... it doesn't house any flow control or shim/tuning stack, so it doesn't need to be that big, the tuning device and flow control is located next to the tuning knobs

both good at what they do


now this whole 90 degree creates heat stuff
... they both mono and twin create heat, a lot of heat, on the dyno moving thru the cycles JRI, Ridetech,QA1, Afco, i tested, all became hot to touch, I didn't do a real temperature differential test, but in my hand they were all become uncomfortable to hold....and if you have an external reservoir on your shock...there are quit a few 90 degree turns happening to get in and out of the canisters on the JRI, Afco, Ridetech, Ohlins, MCS, Vikings and so on.....and many companies are now using those 90 degrees turns also as a tuning aid... here is a cool video about that


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBjZu3TfjF8

just my two cents.....I think have a more unbiased opinion because I sell both styles of shocks, and I use both

[Josh@Ridetech]

Good video, Rod!

[Bwheeler287]

After weighing the pros and cons I contacted josh and ended up ordering a full suspension kit front and rear using ridetechs single adjustable shocks. We determined they fit my needs at this time.

I won't be able to report back in any timely fashion as the car is nowhere near road ready. It is still on my rotisserie at this time. This all started because i needed the 4 link bracket for mock up to ensure I don't need any additional massaging before I paint the bottom of the car. Funny how things snowball.... if I'm gonna buy part of it, may as well get it all I guess.

Although I can attest to the customer service and advice Josh put forward, ridetech looks to be a great company to deal with.

[Josh@Ridetech]

After weighing the pros and cons I contacted josh and ended up ordering a full suspension kit front and rear using ridetechs single adjustable shocks. We determined they fit my needs at this time.

I won't be able to report back in any timely fashion as the car is nowhere near road ready. It is still on my rotisserie at this time. This all started because i needed the 4 link bracket for mock up to ensure I don't need any additional massaging before I paint the bottom of the car. Funny how things snowball.... if I'm gonna buy part of it, may as well get it all I guess.

Although I can attest to the customer service and advice Josh put forward, ridetech looks to be a great company to deal with.

Thanks for the good words, Brad! It was good talking to you, give me a call if you need anything!