SC&C Stage 2+ question 69 A body..

[pitts64]

I'm looking at the SC&C stage 2+ kit with .5 lower and .9 upper Howe ball joints..

I wanted to know if I can use this with my stock 69 el Camino lower control arms and with 15x7 4.25 backspace wheels?

My elco is street only and I think I want to keep rubber lower control arm bushings for ride quality.. It does ride nice in stock form..

Thank you,
Jeff

[analyte]

Using the stock lower control arms isn't an issue, but I never tried 15in wheels. Mark at SC&C could tell you if you're unable to find anything on this site using the search.

[csouth]

The wheel size and backspace should not come in to play when upgrading to that kit.

[Interceptor5588]

If you're sticking with 15" wheels you might be OK. When you go to 17's the SC&C lowers add in some caster to help deal with the wide flat tires available.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Hey Jeff- from your avatar looks like you have a nice Elco there! I'm curious why you chose that system? Are you after looks or better handling or... ?

Adjustable arms look pretty cool when you pop the hood but to take real advantage of that adjustable design they're mostly only for guys that will be changing alignments often to accommodate varying track conditions and race venues, super tuning that alignment to pick up 1/10ths of seconds. Based on what you like in suspension feel, your street cruise only driving style and wheel and tire choice, those are overkill for your application. Consider this- suspension is much like building a motor- If you put a big nasty rumpety cam with a power range of 3500-7500 in an 8.5:1 350 with stock heads, a performer intake, a stock torque converter and 3.08 gears the car would likely be slower off the line and not be much faster overall than the stock motor. You'd likely be disappointed in the performance and may feel you wasted your money. Add a decent set of heads, the right carb, intake and ignition, back it with a 3500 stall and 4.11 gears and the car would really move. In a similar respect simply changing the upper arms and adding taller ball joints to increase camber gain for hard cornering situations, based on your description of the rest of the car's package, is something you'll never really feel the full advantage of until you replace the rest of the suspension. Perhaps the extra cost of that intended design might go a little further towards better overall handling if redirected towards a package that better fits your needs/wants.

As has been said, most high quality aftermarket control arms, be it Speedtech, SPC or whoever, build some caster geometry improvement into the lower arms, so there is a handling improvement advantage to be had there. Combine that with matching tubular uppers and a decent performance one-time alignment and you should see some noticeable improvement in suspension responsiveness and have a car that's a little more confident and more fun to drive. You didn't mention but I'm guessing at least for now you're keeping factory style sway bars, shocks and springs so your ride will still be factory soft. Swapping those out for performance parts will more complete the package and you'll really turn up the heat in your ride's handling capabilities, if that's what you want.

If you want better response and handling and still want to stick with the 15" wheels I may suggest looking at a higher speed rating tire. Back when I had 15s on my car I tracked down some 225-60-15 V rated tires that worked pretty well. This is a tire that was used on Mustang GTs and Highway Patrol cars in the late 80's and early 90's, and they're a huge improvement in handling responsiveness over the typical S rated tires that we all used on our muscle cars.

I see you have a lot of posts so I may be preaching something you already know, so forgive me if that's the case. I've been in the situation before where I bought what was the cool ticket and everybody had to have and then found it didn't yield the results I wanted and felt frustrated and that it wasn't worth the cost. I hate to see anybody go through that. I'm not suggesting that's the case here, Mark's a great guy and very knowledgeable, and the first Pro Touring suspension system on my car before I swapped to a full Speedtech suspension was his stage 2 system, but from what I'm reading in your thoughts above and considering that package they don't really seem to go together?

[pitts64]

I just want to be able to hang with the new performance cars..

The roads I drive in the hills of Western Pa are like a road course.. Unless you've driven here, I doubt you know what I mean.. You need a fast, responsive and stable suspension here..

I cranked the caster up as far as I could while keeping the camber as close to zero as possible and added a 13" steering wheel.. Even with the stock steering box the difference is amazing.. I'm happy with the quickness of the steering, I want a heavier on center feel..
Right now my car has bad control arm bushings.. I'm tempted to just replace them and grind down the cross shafts in the front to get the positive caster up while keeping the static camber close to zero to -.50 and see how that does..

The GM A body suspension is light years better then that old rear steer mess I was dealing with on my 64 Pontiac!

Please feel free to post your opinions.. I'd rather erase it from paper then remove parts.

Thank you for the responses..

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Sounds like a fun type pf place to live!!

[hotrodalex]

Tall ball joints are a great upgrade for these big cars. It improves the camber a lot and gives you more grip. I also think you'll notice more grip with -1° to -1.25° of camber. Don't worry about tire wear - it'll actually reduce outer tire wear if you're driving on twisty roads often. Chevelles love to roll the tires over. Unfortunately, more camber means less available caster with the stock upper control arms. Might be worth it to upgrade to new upper arms to get the best alignment. I wouldn't worry about upgrading the lower arms unless you start autoxing or just want them to match.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Glad you're having some fun experimenting with it! Once you get bit by the handling bug it's hard to stop. ;)

Here's what we suggest as a base for Daily Driving and Street Performance Specifications. Of course you can get more aggressive for when you plan to autoX/ road course, but to take full advantage you'll want to upgrade the rest of your parts to get the most out of an aggressive alignment. If you get very aggressive on the camber for now watch for inner tire wear, especially as the other worn factory original parts on the car will compound the problem.

Driver Side/ Passenger Side
4 Degrees positive Caster/ 4 ½ Degrees positive Caster
0 to ½ Degree negative Camber/ 0 to ½ Degree negative Camber
3/ 32 Total Toe-in / 3/ 32 Total Toe-in

[pitts64]

Wow thanks for the info guys..

I was looking at the stock uppers and got a crazy idea, has anybody ever tried to switch the stock front uppers from side to side for more positive caster? Looks like it would work but I guess not since I never heard of it...

[chevelletiger]

Do the streetgrip kit from ridetech i think thats the best thing for better than stock car.

[UMI Tech]

Depending on your timeframe for purchase, you should come to Pitt Race on August 19-20 and see our '72 LeMans in action. We can discuss street manners, handling upgrades, comfort, performance, etc. If you want to see the schedule for the North East Musclecar Challenge, send me a PM.

ramey


Wow thanks for the info guys..

I was looking at the stock uppers and got a crazy idea, has anybody ever tried to switch the stock front uppers from side to side for more positive caster? Looks like it would work but I guess not since I never heard of it...

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Swapping arms side to side would yield way excessive results.

You're familiar with Mark from SC&C, may I suggest picking up his book "How to make your muscle car handle". This book is written in a way that's easy to understand and helps a person learn more about how all the parts of a suspension work together, for example how caster will affect handling. After reading it you'll be able to better design a total package that meets your needs and better understand what level of performance to expect from your choice of suspension products.

[UMI Tech]

The caster ends up way too high and the ball joint pad is completely whack (engineering term).


Wow thanks for the info guys..

I was looking at the stock uppers and got a crazy idea, has anybody ever tried to switch the stock front uppers from side to side for more positive caster? Looks like it would work but I guess not since I never heard of it...

[hotrodalex]

I can (shamefully) echo the last two posts. I've done on accident before and ended up with 10°+ of caster. The tires rubbed on the back of the inner fender well at half-lock.

[pitts64]

I really appreciate the posts!

I'm going to replace all the rubber control arm bushings and grind off a 1/2" of steel at the cross-shafts front bolt hole.. I know I'll end up with after market control arms but I like to work my way into things..

I am amazed at how well this car handles now even with shot control arm bushings.. All I did was crank the positive caster up as far as it would go while keeping negative camber under .50.. The shims are close to equal so the frame must be decent.. It does have the heavier #1942 El Camino / station wagon frame..